[Course Forum] 5000 Important words in Greek

Thanks @mino98 for you comments. Although a number of people have raised the issue about frequency and sorting over the past few years, it is virtually impossible. I say virtually because anything is technically possible but Memrise has no facilities to make this easy or even doable. You cannot export (i.e. dump) the DB and re-import it, you cannot move items (words) from one level to another (i.e. no drag-n-drop), there are no sort facilities. The only arranging possible is within a single level. Progress is tied to the words in the current database, so even if you could export and re-import, you would lose those connections and progress would be lost, something that I would not do. And finally, the audio, which is a huge part of why this present course works well for people, would have to likely be re-applied, and the audio has been enhanced, edited, tweaked etc over the years.

All of that said, I personally am opposed to idea of frequency-based vocabulary learning. I don’t think it works as a language learner, although I am trying a French course presently so we’ll see if it makes me feel differently. But, I’ve been at this a long time. If you’ve read my previous comments on the subject you’ll see why I feel the way I do. If there are any good arguments for why someone thinks frequency-based vocabulary learning makes sense, then I’m yet to hear them. A lot of people have suggested they think it is better, but why? What’s the evidence that it works better then this somewhat admittedly random approach.

So, finally, why is the course arranged the way it is? Mainly because it started out as '1692 Most Important Words in Greek (arguable!) when I inherited it. The original author abandoned it years ago and I was made a contributor so that I could start fixing all the problems, errors, etc. There was no audio, there were many mistakes, no articles or Alts, just a lot of words, yet there were a lot of users and in the old forum system people kept asking for things to be fixed. So, we started fixing it, and then just kept growing it to the size that it is now.

Hi @neal.p.carey, thanks for answering so quickly.

You cannot export (i.e. dump) the DB and re-import it, you cannot move items (words) from one level to another (i.e. no drag-n-drop), there are no sort facilities. The only arranging possible is within a single level. Progress is tied to the words in the current database, so even if you could export and re-import, you would lose those connections and progress would be lost, something that I would not do. And finally, the audio, which is a huge part of why this present course works well for people, would have to likely be re-applied, and the audio has been enhanced, edited, tweaked etc over the years.

I would have sorted words by analysing a general large body of Greek text, calculating the frequency distribution and mapping it to the words in your set. This is a standard technique, and tools make it relatively easy to do. However, this is a moot point if Memrise does not allow to export and re-import data without loosing audio mappings (and progress for current students, but that of course it would be lost). So, I give up :slight_smile:

If there are any good arguments for why someone thinks frequency-based vocabulary learning makes sense, then I’m yet to hear them.

Actually, this has strong foundations in both linguistics and cognitive learning.
The main benefit of learning words by decreasing frequency is that is that every new word you acquire is probabilistically guaranteed to fit in the language context of the words you already know. Said simply: the probability of being able to make a sentence with a newly learned word is much higher if you sample new words based on decreasing frequency of usage. This is simple statistics.
Also, practically speaking, benefits are greater for early-stages learners as you have much higher probability of being able to use new words if they are more common. It is clearly a function with diminishing returns, which you want to optimise for the new learners (especially in a huge class like this). This is why every school textbook in the world uses this principle and tend to teach you context-adjacent words instead of randomly picked items of a vocabulary.

The original author abandoned it years ago and I was made a contributor so that I could start fixing all the problems, errors, etc. There was no audio, there were many mistakes, no articles or Alts, just a lot of words, yet there were a lot of users and in the old forum system people kept asking for things to be fixed. So, we started fixing it, and then just kept growing it to the size that it is now.

And thank you for this!
Please don’t take this message as a harsh criticism, I’m thankful for maintaining this course! :slight_smile:

Welcome to the course!

I’m not actually a mod, just a frequent contributor! RE frequency - not that it’s possible to amend the course now - I do see what you’re saying, and I do think learning the more common words has a place. Duolingo and Clozemaster, for starters, are pretty good examples of this. But they’re more about learning the language and its mechanics.

This course (and Memrise as a whole) I see as being much more about expanding your vocabulary, and I think also by osmosis you start to learn things that you wouldn’t necessarily pick up if you were purely learning by frequency - spelling, tonos placement, what sort of word a word you haven’t encountered before is likely to be, and so on. I haven’t had much time to learn new words over the past few months as I’ve been going through some epic life changes (I’m in the process of moving to Greece), but I primarily use Memrise to learn words that I haven’t encountered before. So the words I have in my own course are a very, very strange mix and would be by no stretch of the imagination frequency-based.

I think also, given the ongoing influence of Katharevousa and the fact that newspapers and official bodies like to use logios words, that if you focused entirely on frequency, there’s a danger that you’d find an official form in front of you, or a newspaper article, and not be able to understand a word of it.

Anyway, to be completely honest, although I started learning Greek via Memrise, now that I actually know a little bit about what I’m doing, I’d recommend that someone new to the language started out on Duo or with a textbook and lessons, and then came to Memrise to expand their vocab and improve their spelling once they understood the language a little.

Having said that, if you did want to do down the frequency route, I think there are a few frequency-based Greek courses here on Memrise, but they’re not as good (mistakes, not maintained, no audio etc) as this one.

Good luck learning!

I agree, they are not good. They are full of mistakes, no audio and, most important, they include individual conjugations of verbs which makes no sense to me (e.g., a “είμαι” is a word, “είσαι” is another word, etc.).

Individual conjugations can be useful, depending on the level of the user, I think. I don’t usually bother to learn them separately now that I can, for the most part, take a decent stab at what the conjugation should be if I don’t know it already. But for irregular verbs, and when you’re starting out (I didn’t even know what conjugation was 18 months ago), I think it has its place.

The same goes for tenses but to a greater degree. Verbs like νομίζω are easy enough to figure out in both tense and conjugation, but, hm… words like λαμβάνομαι (ελήφθην/λήφθηκα)… eesh.

It is certainly possible to build a course like this, but frequency-based. I’ve built a number of courses and although I certainly don’t have all the answers or know all the tricks there is a method I follow to create a course. One of the chief problems with the way Memrise works is that if you build your course with a target number of words per level, say 25 (as we do here), then once they are set you cannot just stick a word in where it ‘belongs’ without messing up the scheme. Maybe that’s not that critical. Also, with some of the frequency lists I’ve seen they seem to be based on movies, TV shows, other sources? and so, where do you get the initial list? I’m actually doing a French frequency-based course now to try out if I like it, but the 1st Level alone has 100 words, which I find daunting as it feels like your progress is slow and it’s a lot to bite off, so I like my learning “chunks” to be smaller.

But, if you’re considering building such a course, just realize how much work you’re signing up for before you get started. I would encourage you to create a test course to see how much time it takes to develop a single Level just as an experiment. Here’s how I’d do it:

Create the course, add the columns you want get them in the order you need them. Be sure to include the foreign key mappings (sadly, Memrise does not provide Greek!). Here is the string of keyboard characters I use:
;ςερτυθιοπ ασδφγηξκλ ζχψωβνμ άέήίόύώϊΐϋΰ

Create a few levels to get started.

Using Excel I would create a list of words (you can refer to https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3-ATVs8f9pIOWlIMHZOT2F2OFk)

When you create the list, and before you import anything make sure you’re accommodating the articles, parts of speech, any Alts you want to have. For example, looking at this list and imagine my columns are (in this order) Greek, English, Part of Speech, Gender, Context Example:

χαμηλώνω [tab] to lower [tab] verb [tab][tab] Το μαγαζί χαμηλώνει τις τιμές για τις εκπτώσεις.
η δαγκωνιά, η δαγκανιά [tab] bite, nibble [tab] noun [tab] f. [tab] Πάρε μια δαγκωνιά ροδάκινο.
ιδιωματικός [tab] idiomatic [tab] adjective [tab] Είναι δυνατόν να καταλάβει κανείς εύκολα την καταγωγή κάποιου από την ιδιωματική προφορά του.

A few comments about what you see here:

  1. [tab] represents the tab characters that appear when you copy from your spreadsheet, this is the easiest way I can think of to do it when you paste the list into the “bulk add” form in Memrise.
  2. If you want to automatically include Alts as I have done for “η δαγκωνιά, η δαγκανιά” above, then that is a single string which would have to be edited once you import to Memrise. So, once these 3 entries are in, you have to edit “η δαγκωνιά, η δαγκανιά” so that the word that ‘shows’ is “η δαγκωνιά” and the three Alts are: _δαγκωνιά, η δαγκανιά, _δαγκανιά. The underscore character allows the Alt as a valid answer but suppresses the display of it.
  3. Same approach to Alts for English column, so that once imported the main entry has to be edited so that bite is primary, and you create nibble as an Alt. This is very important because you want either answer to be valid and if you put them both together it would always appear as one string “bite, nibble” and as such in some testing situations won’t appear as you want it.
  4. The 2 tabs together simply specify that a column is being skipped, i.e. in the case of a verb the Gender column remains empty.
  5. Go to forvo.com and join up! This will allow you to find each word, and download the .mp3 pronunciation so you can import it to Memrise. There is apparently another way by creating some kind of link directly to Forvo, but I did not like this method and had trouble making it work. That would also create a dependency between Memrise and Forvo, that depending on the performance of each system may slow things down. So I choose to get the word, download it and upload it to Memrise.
  6. When you create a course, it creates a database for you, this can be confusing because I’ve never been able to use another database, but often when you import Memrise may find that word in another database (how, I don’t know) and use it, so I try to make sure my entries are unique. Ex: putting in “η δαγκωνιά, η δαγκανιά” is certainly likely to be unique, but putting in just “δαγκωνιά” may not be. So, after you import a list it is good to do all of the required editing and make sure you have all of your entries correct. This sounds more arduous than it really is, but it is time consuming. Generally my experience is that it takes about 1 hour to do a Level and if, like our course, it has 200 Levels, that’s a lot of time.

This is pretty much how I do it. There may be other approaches, but this has worked for me. The more you learn about course creation, the more you’ll appreciate and understand what makes some courses work better than others. For a course to be useful, it has to be well-crafted IMHO.

Finally, you need to find someone, like @spdl79 who will help find all the bugs and errors, because they will exist. He has been a tremendous contributor to this particular course and it would not be as good as it is without him. I’m pretty meticulous, but as a software person you already understand that I’ve made plenty of mistakes that may have taken me a lot more time to find without help.

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I have completed Level 176, adding some nationality stuff that really should have been much earlier in the course.

New worksheet: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3-ATVs8f9pIOWlIMHZOT2F2OFk

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Crab is here twice, once as κάβουρας in 118 (Alted as καβούρι), and another as καβούρι, in 84. I don’t know if this is considered a dupe, but I thought I would report it.

These are both cross-Alt’d to each other, so I would not consider these a dupe.

G’day Neal!

I hope you’re well. So, I’m now living in Crete! We’ve finally got the internet hooked up to the house, so I’ll be around a bit more again (although I probably won’t get around to the newer levels for quite some time, as I’m still incredibly busy - ironically I have less time available to learn Greek here than I did in London).

Anyway, just a small one for now: Level 81, θύμα, this is given as a feminine noun, and articled as such, but unless I’m wrong, it should be neuter.

All the best,
Sean

Good to hear from you Sean. Very exciting news indeed! You must be having a blast. Good luck putting all your Greek to work on a daily basis.

We spent a little time in Crete back in 2000 and thoroughly enjoyed it. Landed by boat at Iraklion, traveled east to Agios Nikolas, went around almost the entire island except for west of Chania. Left by boat from Souda, which ironically was the only port we were anchored in back in 1975 when I was in the Navy!

Fixed, thanks! Updated worksheet as well, same link as somewhere above.

It’s good that I can hear and speak Greek every day - very few people in the village speak English and everyone else knows I’m trying to learn, so they just speak Greek to me anyway - but I have very little time for active studying. The house we’re living in is fantastic but hadn’t been maintained very well for the past decade or so, there is a huge amount of work getting everything back in shape. And we somehow ended up with two dogs within a week of arriving! So I’m not able to spend much time in front of my computer at the moment.

You missed the best bit :wink: You’ll have to come back.

Thanks for amending.

Βεβαίως! We will come back and Crete is high on the list!

Excellent, and please do look us up if you make it!

One more gender/article fix, while we’re at it: Level 85, pupil, is given as neuter but I think it may be masculine.

Yes, of course! I have changed it to ο and for the gender it shows as m./f. - FWIW the feminine form was alway there.

Καλά Χριστούγεννα και Ευτυχές το νέο έτος σε όλους τους μαθητές της ελληνικής!

kaallaxristo

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Και εσύ, Νεαλ!

G’day Neal,

Nice quick one. Level 83, ο ερμηνευτής. The primary here is given as ‘player’. I think one of the secondaries - expositor, expounder, interpreter - might be better here. Player for me is παίχτης, and ερμηνευτής comes from
ερμηνεύω, which is to interpret, construe, explain, expound etc. Cheers!

OK, I’ve put “interpreter (actor)” with _interpreter as Alt as the primary. Given the explanatory sentence is: “Ο ερμηνευτής είναι αυτός που κάνει ερμηνεία ενός θεατρικού.” this makes the most sense to me. Expositor/expounder are rather uncommon words in English so I’d avoid those. I’ve also added “performer” as an Alt.

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Thanks for that Neal!

One more: Level 124, θέλημα. It’s listed and articled as feminine but I think it might be neuter.