I am wondering why the flashcard for: wó hěn kāixīn is wrong (http://prnt.sc/dxe1j2)
I know about tone sandhi but even then, the written pinyin should be wǒ hěn kāixīn - tone sandhi only affects pronunciation.
And also this flashcard is hard to learn because I must make a mental note that for this particular phrase, memrise wants to use wó whereas other flashcards use wǒ
Am I wrong here? I spoke to a native speaker who confirmed it is incorrect.
@johnalexander ~ you are correct. The first character should be written as wǒ (third tone) not wó (second tone). It only changes from third tone to second tone if pronounced, not written.
Even though we in Taiwan use Zhuyin instead of pinyin, when we write the equivalent of wǒ (meaning “I”), we use a third tone marker as well ~ but we pronounce it as if it were a second tone (if directly followed by another third tone in a sentence).
The equivalent of the pinyin for wǒ in Zhuyin is ㄨㄛˇ.
hm… in the Assimil books, for ex, when two 3 meet, the first is then written 2, so in the whole (French) Assimil for Chinese one has in these cases wó - i don’t understand the argument"It only changes from third tone to second tone if pronounced, not written", wo is prounciation …
@Hydroptere ~ Hope all is well with you.
I have never heard of the Assimil books, but I have also never heard of an example of when the first of 2 consecutive (written) third tones is changed to a second tone. On the contrary, I could cite countless sources that state otherwise (that two consecutive third tones do not change when written, only when pronounced).
It seems pinyin can be considered a script, not a mere representation of pronunciation.
??? That’s also a new one to me. I wonder where or how someone could authenticate that possibility.
You can:
On the contrary, I could cite countless sources that state otherwise (that two consecutive third tones do not change when written, only when pronounced).
The worst thing is that memrise’s application of their tone change rule is inconsistent.
For example they have “wǒ hěn è” as “wǒ hěn è” i.e. two 3rd tones, and they have left it be as two consecutive 3rd tones.
It’s easier for me to get the valid pronunciation. So I think it is good that there are tone marks changes. I think we should use bopomo rather than pinyin, cause pinyin is stupid (p is pronounced like “ph”, b like “p” etc). Pinyin makes me not to look at the characters, but the transcription, so it’s rather confusing than helpful.
@johnalexander They might change tone marks in the first severals lessons only, idk.
@johnalexander ~ I assume that you are referring to the characters as they appear in the official Memrise Chinese course: http://www.memrise.com/course/1131507/mandarin-chinese-1/
I took a look at just the first level of this course, and found the example you are referring to. I also found several other odd instances of tone changes that I for one would question as well. Probably the easiest one to cite or explain is the example of how “ni hao” is displayed. It is probably one of the first words that any student of the language learns since it means “hello”. I have never seen it displayed in a dictionary as “níhǎo” (a second and then a third tone), only as nǐhǎo (with 2 third tones).
But pinyin aside, I noticed in the Preview screen that they have the Chinese characters for “hello” as an attribute, and they are correctly displayed as 你好. I then copied those two characters and ran them through 4 dictionaries (3 online, one paper copy) and in all 4 pinyin instances the Chinese characters displayed nǐhǎo (with 2 third tones). I could probably do the same for the examples you cited, but I think you get the point.
I have never been a fan of pinyin, but others seem to rely on it. IMHO, what is important are the corresponding Chinese characters. However, when one tries to deconstruct them (to look them up in a dictionary) it is important that they correspond to some type of source (i.e. pinyin, or Zhuyin) that consistently agrees with tonal marking rules. I see that in Zhuyin, but I don’t see that in pinyin (in the examples you are citing or the ones I briefly saw) in this course.
I can’t tell you what you should do, but I I would personally stay with the 2 third tone rule for writing, and 1 second and 1 third tone for pronunciation. It seems pretty well defined and adhered to (beyond this particular course). Whatever you do, I wish you well with your learning !
@Loxiney ~ Zhuyin (aka “bopomofo”) does have some definite advantages over pinyin in the areas of pronunciation. Since the characters are not romanized, the brain doesn’t tend to get lazy, or fall into western pronunciation patters. (I wouldn’t however call pinyin stupid. It serves a purpose and millions (billions ?) rely on it).
Several pronunciation examples of pinyin vs Zhuyin come to mind. One need only listen to a newbie pronounce translations such as strawberry (cǎoméi) or tofu (dòufu) to realize how hard it is sometimes to shake reliance on romanized pronunciation.
Once one learns to pronounce the Zhuyin symbolic characters properly, one doesn’t fall back into the romanized fashion and that makes verbal communication easier, and more natural. At least in my (okay, somewhat biased) humble opinion.
Maybe “stupid” is not a good word, but imo creates lots of troubles for beginners. I’m kinda bookworm person, so I can get used to the wrong pronunciation, that’s why I started learning zhuyin (actually there were some other reasons too). I guess you know what I mean.
@Loxiney ~ yes, I know what you mean. 
I am doing my part to promote Zhuyin to some fellow Mandarin learners back in the US. They also agree it is a good decision versus pinyin. I wish you well with your studies !