[Resolved] Can we do more here than translation exercises?

Community-Created Courses Course Creator's Corner
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Has anyone created or studied a Memrise course with a unique questioning structure? As in, more than just mere translation?

I’ve been experimenting with different testing types.

Rather than prompting the user to react to a prompt with the translation, I have a course that asks users to identify the phonetic qualities (IPA) and pitch contour (as Cantonese is a tonal language).

Still, I’m unsatisfied with the ultimate result.

What I’d really like is something more dynamic. For example:

  1. User is prompted with a question.
  2. User chooses a relevant response to the question.

Another option:

  1. User is prompted with a question or statement with missing information (empty blank).
  2. User chooses an answer that fills the empty blank.

Last option:

  1. User is prompted with a straight-forward question.
  2. User is asked to answer with an affirmative or negative answer.

One only hang-up with this is I don’t think I’d be able to test for both positive and negative responses within the same level.

The other problem is that I wouldn’t be able to have two or three audio files associated with different columns of a specific entry.

And for the amount of work this would take, I’ll probably be unsatisfied with the predictability of it. Primarily because some answers are so blatantly wrong, quickly narrowing down realistic possibilities to 1.

Due to this being a spaced-repetition system, it’s not possible to setup a Pimsleur-style dialogue (to my knowledge).

Well, pretty sure I just talked myself out of this.

I’m left wanting more. Can something more novel and worthwhile be created on this platform than rote vocabulary memorization? Are there greener pastures somewhere?

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Perhaps I do not understand your question?

What you are asking is already being done, so yes, it is possible. You do not have to literally have only a word and the translation word in the database for testing during a course. You can also use sound files or pictures if you want.

The complexity of the testing is limited only by the amount of effort you put into designing and setting up a course. The word for word testing is simply the easiest and therefore most common type of course available.

Why do you think it is not possible to ask a question as a prompt and have the user select a relevant answer. You can put whatever you want in the database. Instead of giving a definition and asking for the word that goes with it, just ask a question that would generally only be answered in a specific way. For example where the target language is French: What kind of animal do equestrians saddle up and ride = un cheval

Fill in the blank is one of the easiest ones to set up. In one column of the database you type in a sentence with one of the words replaced with several underscores and in the other one you type in the answer. In earlier levels when learning individual words you prompt the user with a sentence in one language and the answer is in the target language. As the difficulty increases and the majority of the words in a sentence are expected to be familiar, the sentence and answer are both in the target language.

Given that you felt talked out of doing anything by the end of your comment I would say that it is probably for the best. Only someone who feels invigorated by the idea of meeting the challenge would succeed as it is a great deal of work and usually only undertaken by someone being paid, or at least hoping for payment on completion, or someone very highly motivated for some reason to complete the task.

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@avyva

You do not have to literally have only a word and the translation word in the database for testing during a course. You can also use sound files or pictures if you want.

This course of mine has four columns: http://www.memrise.com/course/1114658/hong-kong-useful-cantonese/

My recent one uses seven, including tested fields for IPA and pitch contours (as I mentioned in my post): http://www.memrise.com/course/1188770/pronounce-cantonese-ipa-jyutping-hk-useful-guang-d/

So yes, I understand that the options I laid out are possible (question prompts, information gaps). Still, I was hoping someone would provide an example of courses like these – because I might see something I hadn’t thought of.

The complexity of the testing is limited only by the amount of effort you put into designing and setting up a course.

I’m encouraged to hear that. So, let’s revisit the obstacles that I’m seeing:

  1. Can I test for both affirmative (positive) or negative responses to the same question, within the same level? And would I be able to include audio tracks corresponding with each possible answer? I understand this might not turn out exactly how I want it, so willing to make compromises.
  2. How can we control suggested answers so that the majority of possible answers aren’t blatantly obvious? I’m asking, because with the large community here I was hoping someone has figured out a novel solution to this.
  3. Can we sequence a full dialogue, so that it doesn’t break pattern (even upon review)?

it is a great deal of work

Tell me about it. My language has limited learning resources.

There’s also major distinctions between the written and spoken versions of the languages, the latter of which can only be discovered by talking with native speakers (which I spend most of my time obtaining).

And it’s logographic.

It also has different romanization schemes to choose from.

And each word falls within 9 tones and 6 pitch contours.

And with so much emphasis on accuracy on tone and sound, it’s critical that I record and upload audio for each entry.

Only someone who feels invigorated by the idea of meeting the challenge would succeed

I’m here, aren’t I?

Given that you felt talked out of doing anything by the end of your comment

If what I am trying to do is impossible on this platform, then yes – I am certainly curious about alternatives to fulfilling my vision, and am not content to fruitlessly invest several full-days into something that won’t work the way that I want it to.

Some of the things I want are likely completely unreasonable things to expect out of Memrise (unless someone can demonstrate otherwise). Fully acknowledge. So I’m here, brazenly asking someone to show me what’s possible.

Perhaps I do not understand your question?

Are #'s 1, 2, or 3 possible?

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You need to give examples of what specifically you want to do in each of your scenarios. What is an example of a question and what is your intention for requiring the ability to respond with a yes/no, positive/negative answer. What output are you hoping to test on, what type of response are you testing for. In what specific way are you wanting to link an audio to a question.

Your questions are not specific enough. I would answer yes to all except number 3 however I am going to assume the real meaning you intended is not what the questions appear to me to be asking.

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For some reason, it didn’t occur to me that I could have as many audio columns as I want. So that solves problem #1.

Sometimes I have to ask for help before the answer stares me in the face.

@avyva you’re a bit domineering for my taste. I feel it’s unwarranted, and I’m not going to acknowledge you anymore.

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No problem, I was merely trying to help, if I came across as offensive I apologize. It can be hard to communicate in writing.

I wish you luck and hope you succeed in your goals

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avyva, That is very true. FYI, you came off as pretty condescending to me. Incidentally, [quote=“avyva, post:2, topic:4353”]
Perhaps I do not understand your question?
[/quote] is not a question, so it requires a period, not a question mark. Pet peeve, sorry if that sounds condescending :slight_smile:

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A question mark implies a question, yes, so I was trying to express that I was not sure if I was understanding what was being asked. I was simply trying to use one character of punctuation instead of the several words required to express this in its place. When people are trying to communicate in text without tone of voice or facial expression we sometimes violate grammar rules in an attempt to be more clear. It was an attempt at trying to let the person know that if the following text was not on track with what was being asked it was simply because I was unsure what specifically was being asked.

I am now very sorry to have replied to the original poster at all. I was at no point trying to be condescending or anything else, yet, now I have been told by two people that I have been offensive. It was bad enough to be told by one person that I had offended or been condescending. I have already apologized for offending someone even though it was not my intention to be offensive. Is it necessary to continue affirming agreement with my unintended offence. FYI it is hurtful to be told you have offended someone when it was not intentional. It is also hurtful to have others agree that you were offensive even though you have apologized for it and said it was not intentional. I can not un offend, I can however continue to have the fact that others agree pointed out to me. It will continue to be hurtful each time because it means that anyone who does it does not care that I have feelings also and that somehow it is justified to continue pointing out my failure as a human being.

I would apologize for the irritation I caused you with my improper use of a question mark but it would imply I was going to stop doing it. I would be the first to admit that I have callous disregard for grammar rules. How about we agree on a compromise. I will attempt not to use the question mark incorrectly in this forum in the future.

The poster is asking about creating courses. Perhaps in the future we can keep comments here on topic. If anyone else wants to continue attacking me or agreeing that I am a bad person or did a bad thing etc. etc. a new topic post could be created elsewhere for that purpose.

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@ avyva, please don’t let the couple of responses you’ve had put you off posting in the future. I think your posts have been fine. It’s very hard to please everyone even if you are trying! :sunflower:

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Dude, it was a joke. Chill.

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@avyva ~ I think you were being very helpful in your responses. A pattern you have demonstrated with other users with other responses in this forum over many weeks. It is, as you have stated, not always easy to convey thoughts or intentions in this weird, electronic format that we all reside in nowadays. There is never a guarantee that the intentions of the sender will be understood (or even perceived the same) by the receiver. But that should never stop one from trying to assist, as long as the intentions are pure-hearted. I hope you will continue to try to assist others, for in the process you not only potentially aid or illuminate that user, but oftentimes help others (who may be reading your posts) at the same time.

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Resolved

Just realized I can use multiple databases within the same course.

This will help me control for obvious answers. It’ll also give me more flexibility with testing types, and limit the number of blank (or redundant) columns.

I’d venture a guess that this functionality is nothing new to many of you.

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This is an old thread, but many of your questions I too have had in creating courses (or trying to figure out how Memrise works so I can design a course accordingly)… can you expand on how the multiple databases have helped you?

Have you overcome the problem of actually inserting “non-obvious” wrong answers, amongst one “obvious” right answer?

For German, I would like to do the following, specific to articles & adjectives and their case & gender sensitive nouns… but likely Memrise will spit out 3, 5 or 7 nouns (obviously wrong) instead of 3, 5 or 7 declined articles or adjectives, so it is impossible for me to get either a tapping or word order test wrong as it is highly unlikely when I need “der” + “blau-en” (some feminine noun in Dativ), that I will be offered “den”, “die”, “blau-es”, “blau-er”, etc., in addition to the correct answer(s).

After a certain amount of characters (or words), spelling tests disappear altogether for that entry - which is actually what I was searching for on the forums when finding this thread.

  1. character &/or word count when Memrise turns off spelling tests for an entry is? ie 40 characters, &/or 4 words…

Back to databases, columns & testing… is it possible within one level to test against two different databases & then 2 different “answer” columns?

One thing I have noticed, database column names are forced to be the same across the entirety of the course - across every level. The column name translates to what the user is supposed to “translate/answer” in the level test. Increasing database columns to “correct” for this, means for each additional column, one needs to add another course level to test against it.

Based on some of this issues above… I’m of the mind I need to build completely different courses specific to certain sub-language properties. For example, I can’t have a column “nouns”, then add verbs or “adjectives” to it, because then the user is confused when each question says, “nouns testing for adjectives” when I’m looking for a verb.

Anywho… here’s my current efforts at course building… only “attacking” German verbs in this “course” of a planned series, where uniform column names make things difficult, as does inclusion of simple terminology translations (where I would rather they exist in a second database, but tested/displayed in a level with database #1 information, but carrying over their column names at testing… https://www.memrise.com/course/1611794/german-demystified-2-verbs/

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Sorry @HansWT, I’ve been inactive on Memrise for quite a while. Only just saw your message.

can you expand on how the multiple databases have helped you?

Truthfully I doubt remember. The last time I tried to update a course on Memrise, I believe I was having trouble syncing items from the databases to the course.

Have you overcome the problem of actually inserting “non-obvious” wrong answers, amongst one “obvious” right answer?

No. I’ve given it some thought though, and I think the only way would be to make an entirely separate course where every word or phrase could be mistaken for another.

For Cantonese, this might mean putting together a course where the initial sounds are very similar, or a course with the same consonant and vowel sounds but different tones. This would basically be using ‘minimal pairs’, the kind of exercise you might see in a language classroom.

Honestly; very niche, thematic, or limited scope courses seem like a good idea to me. So this could be workable.

For German, I would like to do the following, specific to articles & adjectives and their case & gender sensitive nouns…

I would recommend searching and reading about processing instruction, the research work from Bill VanPatten. This might inform you about how you can structure exercises to acquire ‘redundant’ grammatical features.

I use these concepts in my language classrooms, but I haven’t applied them yet in any digital format.

is it possible within one level to test against two different databases & then 2 different “answer” columns?

I’m not sure. It’s really been too long for me, sorry.

Based on some of the issues above… I’m of the mind I need to build completely different courses specific to sub-language properties.

Hey! We’re on the same page here.

here’s my current efforts at course building

I’d like to see it, thought the link is broken. Perhaps you changed the name?